Studies nor no studies

[DiscoDuck]

I don't give a crap what "studies" show (whether effective or not).
Why do some people find that so hard to accept? Intolerance no doubt.
It makes sense for EVERYONE AT ALL TIMES to wear a helmet. Even at
home. A friendof mine recently lost her father to a head injury that
was incurred at home. Had he worn a helmet, maybe he'd be alive
today.
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

[Paul - xxx]

DiscoDuck vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

[Mark McN]

Post by Paul - xxx

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

Check the x-posts. A lot of cyclists don't.

[Paul - xxx]

Mark McN vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by Mark McN

Post by Paul - xxx

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

Check the x-posts.

Who gives a shit, I read and post to uk.rec.cycling.

Post by Mark McN
A lot of cyclists don't.

UK cyclists do, who are all that concern me, really.

[Richard Drown]

Post by Paul - xxx
Mark McN vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by Mark McN

Post by Paul - xxx

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

Check the x-posts.

Who gives a shit, I read and post to uk.rec.cycling.

Post by Mark McN
A lot of cyclists don't.

UK cyclists do, who are all that concern me, really.

UK cyclists can go straight to hell. Get off our board and start spelling
words correctly.

Post by Paul - xxx
--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

Post by Richard Drown
UK cyclists can go straight to hell. Get off our board and start spelling
words correctly.

Interestingly the international standard spelling for Aluminium is the
British spelling, but the international standard spelling for Sulfur
is the US one. If it comes to a fight, though - it's our language, we
had it first, so go invent your own :-)

Check the x-post list.

Guy

[Mark McN]

Post by Just zis Guy, you know?
If it comes to a fight, though - it's our language, we
had it first, so go invent your own :-)

They did, they did. ;-)

Post by Just zis Guy, you know?

Post by Richard Drown
UK cyclists can go straight to hell. Get off our board and start spelling
words correctly.

What, *another* cheerful and well-adjusted poster with a close
understanding of how usenet works?

[David E. Belcher]

Post by Just zis Guy, you know?

Post by Richard Drown
UK cyclists can go straight to hell. Get off our board and start spelling
words correctly.

Interestingly the international standard spelling for Aluminium is the
British spelling, but the international standard spelling for Sulfur
is the US one.

Apparently all down to a compromise reached to stop any quibbling
within IUPAC [1]; us Brits got to keep our spelling of aluminium and
make it the
official IUPAC one, the trade-off being that our spelling of sulphur
is no longer used for chemistry textbooks [1], periodic tables, etc.,
the US version being the standard.

David E. Belcher

[1] International Union of Pure & Applied Chemistry, for those not in
the know. The body responsible for deciding how elements & compounds
should be named.
[2] I managed to sneak 'sulphur' into my PhD thesis, and got away with
it as (a) it wasn't directly relevant to the subject discussed and (b)
it only appeared once in the whole thing.

[Paul - xxx]

Richard Drown vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by Richard Drown

Post by Paul - xxx
Mark McN vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by Mark McN

Post by Paul - xxx

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

Check the x-posts.

Who gives a shit, I read and post to uk.rec.cycling.

Post by Mark McN
A lot of cyclists don't.

UK cyclists do, who are all that concern me, really.

UK cyclists can go straight to hell. Get off our board

Like I said, I post to uk.rec.cycling .. if some dickwad wants to cross-post
to hell and back, why should I worry.

Post by Richard Drown
and start spelling words correctly.

And which words would they be?

[MSeries]

Post by Richard Drown
UK cyclists can go straight to hell. Get off our board and start spelling
words correctly.

Ha ha ha. Interestingly I have been to Hell, in Norway, isn't that where
Trolls live ?

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:35:29 +0000 someone who may be MSeries

Post by MSeries
Ha ha ha. Interestingly I have been to Hell, in Norway, isn't that where
Trolls live ?

In Norway they live in the mountains and are not at all amusing to
encounter. On Usenet they live under bridges (supposedly) and can be
amusing to play with for a while.

[David Martin]

Post by David Hansen
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:35:29 +0000 someone who may be MSeries

Post by MSeries
Ha ha ha. Interestingly I have been to Hell, in Norway, isn't that where
Trolls live ?

In Norway they live in the mountains and are not at all amusing to
encounter. On Usenet they live under bridges (supposedly) and can be
amusing to play with for a while.

They live in lakes as well, taking the form of boats until you are in mid
water. And in forests. There was an exhibition I went to in a local gallery
in Roedtangen which had nice landscapes, untill you stepped back and looked
at them slightly askance and out of focus. Then you see the trolls..

..d

[Dave Kahn]

Post by Paul - xxx
Mark McN vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by Mark McN

Post by Paul - xxx

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

Check the x-posts.

Who gives a shit, I read and post to uk.rec.cycling.

Post by Mark McN
A lot of cyclists don't.

UK cyclists do, who are all that concern me, really.

That freedom of choice in the UK is currently under a sustained and
determined attack. The barbarians are at the gates. That is why there
is so much traffic on this issue. It may be boring but people who care
about this issue are simply not going to let myths and misconceptions
go unchallenged in the current climate.

[JFJones]

Post by Dave Kahn

Post by Paul - xxx
Mark McN vaguely muttered something like ...

Post by Mark McN

Post by Paul - xxx

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

errr ...cyclists do currently have freedom of choice.

Check the x-posts.

Who gives a shit, I read and post to uk.rec.cycling.

Post by Mark McN
A lot of cyclists don't.

UK cyclists do, who are all that concern me, really.

That freedom of choice in the UK is currently under a sustained and
determined attack. The barbarians are at the gates. That is why there
is so much traffic on this issue. It may be boring but people who care
about this issue are simply not going to let myths and misconceptions
go unchallenged in the current climate.

You have so called safety organizations like BHIT* in the UK bandying
around exaggerations and falsehoods and we have ours here in Canada.

There's an exposé on their roles in Ontario's adult helmet law
proposal at The Vehicular Cyclist http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc

It is an anti-law campaign site also carrying a wealth of
international helmet research.

JFJ

* One of BHIT claims is that it has been shown in Canada that helmet
use has saved lives. This claim cannot be substantiated and is
blatantly false.

[David]

Post by JFJones
* One of BHIT claims is that it has been shown in Canada that helmet
use has saved lives. This claim cannot be substantiated and is
blatantly false.

Just to put my $.02 worth in..........Maybe bike helmets haven't saved
lives in Canada but I would be willing to bet a donut that many EMT's
everywhere else would say they have saved lives in their country. From the
looks of this flame war it appears there are at least some Canadian's
with heads so hard they don't need helmets.

BTW I do wear a helmet for the same reason I wear safty glasses, a hard
hat and safty shoes at work. If 10 tons of steel falls on me all my safty
equipment isn't going to help. Nor is my helmet going to help if I get
under the tire of an 18 wheeler. But with the more ordinary and frequent
type of accident all my safty equipment can help out a lot. I can and
have walked away unhurt from incidents that would at the very least
resulted in painful bruises.

So if you guys don't mind, and I do know some of you do, I'll keep my
helmet on my head and do what I can to protect the ole cranium.

[Jon Senior]

Post by David
Just to put my $.02 worth in..........Maybe bike helmets haven't saved
lives in Canada but I would be willing to bet a donut that many EMT's
everywhere else would say they have saved lives in their country. From the
looks of this flame war it appears there are at least some Canadian's
with heads so hard they don't need helmets.
BTW I do wear a helmet for the same reason I wear safty glasses, a hard
hat and safty shoes at work. If 10 tons of steel falls on me all my safty
equipment isn't going to help. Nor is my helmet going to help if I get
under the tire of an 18 wheeler. But with the more ordinary and frequent
type of accident all my safty equipment can help out a lot. I can and
have walked away unhurt from incidents that would at the very least
resulted in painful bruises.
So if you guys don't mind, and I do know some of you do, I'll keep my
helmet on my head and do what I can to protect the ole cranium.

And learn how to spell? :-)

It is an odd perspective though. "I know that my helmet wont save me in
the situations that are liable to kill me, but I'll continue to wear it
anyway because it protects me from minor bruising."

I guess you must really like the feel of the foam on your head.

Jon

[Peter Cremasco]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:26:02 -0000, Jon Senior

Post by Jon Senior

Post by David
BTW I do wear a helmet for the same reason I wear safty glasses, a hard
hat and safty shoes at work. If 10 tons of steel falls on me all my safty
equipment isn't going to help. Nor is my helmet going to help if I get
under the tire of an 18 wheeler. But with the more ordinary and frequent
type of accident all my safty equipment can help out a lot. I can and
have walked away unhurt from incidents that would at the very least
resulted in painful bruises.
So if you guys don't mind, and I do know some of you do, I'll keep my
helmet on my head and do what I can to protect the ole cranium.

And learn how to spell? :-)
It is an odd perspective though. "I know that my helmet wont save me in
the situations that are liable to kill me, but I'll continue to wear it
anyway because it protects me from minor bruising."

Ok. Let me give you a mild wack on the head with this piece of 4 x 2
while you're wearing a helmet.

NOW, let me do the same while you're NOT wearing the helmet.

Which do you prefer"?


---
Cheers

PeterC

[Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
[and there's nothing you can do about it at all]

[David Martin]

Post by Peter Cremasco
Ok. Let me give you a mild wack on the head with this piece of 4 x 2
while you're wearing a helmet.
NOW, let me do the same while you're NOT wearing the helmet.
Which do you prefer"?

Try this instead. Let me whack you with a 2x4 while you are wearing a
helmet.

Now while you are recovering I will run away very fast so you can't hit me.

If your usual riding style involves people hitting you with 2x4 then I'd
suggest a hard shell helmet amy be a better option, rather than a bike
helmet.

Or do you have something other than a trite example of why you wear a helmet
whilst walking.

..d

[Eric®]

Post by David Martin
Try this instead. Let me whack you with a 2x4 while you are wearing a
helmet.
Now while you are recovering I will run away very fast so you can't hit me.
If your usual riding style involves people hitting you with 2x4 then I'd
suggest a hard shell helmet amy be a better option, rather than a bike
helmet.
Or do you have something other than a trite example of why you wear a helmet
whilst walking.

I still don't understand why some people pre-occupied with bonking
themselves on the head haven't called for the mandatory wearing of
helmets for users of stationary exercise bikes.

Eric Schild

[Mark McN]

Post by Peter Cremasco
Ok. Let me give you a mild wack on the head with this piece of 4 x 2
while you're wearing a helmet.
NOW, let me do the same while you're NOT wearing the helmet.
Which do you prefer"?

O Lord, not this again...

Let me throw this big'n'hard piece of road an inch past your skull.

NOW, let me do the same while you're wearing the helmet.

Which do you prefer?


I've come off the bike just twice in my life; both times I didn't hit my
head, though I came close - I suspect the fall reflex saved me. Helmets
make the head bigger and heavier; if I'd been wearing one, I might have
hit my head. So, should I have been wearing a helmet or not? And do you
think the question might be *possibly* a tad less simplistic than you're
implying?

(And why do so many helmet supporters seem to like hitting people over
the head/running into walls? ;-))

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:03:50 +1000, Peter Cremasco

Post by Peter Cremasco
Ok. Let me give you a mild wack on the head with this piece of 4 x 2
while you're wearing a helmet.
NOW, let me do the same while you're NOT wearing the helmet.
Which do you prefer"?

Scenario A: Hey! Hit me with that! I bet my helmet will stop it
hurting at all! OUCH!

Scenario B: Hey! Hit me with that! No, no, only kidding. <runs
away>

Any more straw men lined up back there?

Guy

[Jon Senior]

Post by Peter Cremasco
Ok. Let me give you a mild wack on the head with this piece of 4 x 2
while you're wearing a helmet.
NOW, let me do the same while you're NOT wearing the helmet.
Which do you prefer"?

Neither. And if you try to whack me on the head (Helmeted or otherwise)
with anything, I'll make damn sure that you don't remember your own name
when they finally discharge you! ;-)

How about. Which do you prefer. Being hit on the head while wearing a
helmet, or not being hit on the head? Since being hit on the head is not
actually an inevitable consequence of cycling, I see as much merit in
wearing protection against that, as I do for wearing fire retardant
clothing.

In the unlikely event that I do actually hit my head, it'll almost
certainly be against the car that just hit me and is unlikely to be in
the order of magnitude where a helmet will do anything for me.

I don't like the feel of foam against my head. I don't like the
excessive heat that I feel as a consequence, and I don't like the
visibility problems caused by the sweat pouring into my eyes. Until a
helmet offers me more than amelioration of minor cuts and scrapes, the
disadvantages vastly outweigh the advantages as far as I'm concerned.

Jon

[Richard]

Post by David
Just to put my $.02 worth in..........Maybe bike helmets haven't saved
lives in Canada but I would be willing to bet a donut that many EMT's
everywhere else would say they have saved lives in their country.

Oh, yes. My brother is a (medical) doctor specialising in trauma
medicine and occasionally nags at me to wear one, although he has never
treated a casualty in a bike accident where a helmet may have even
possibly saved a life. However, he recently attended a pedestrian who
had drunkenly strolled into a major road and been knocked down, striking
his head and subsequently dying despite everyone's best efforts. Yet
bro never suggests the need for walking helmets. :-)

R "statistical sample of one".

[Doug Huffman]

Yes, exactly. I submit that the pro's are not well educated enough to
recognize the significance of an anecdote or a "sample of one". Further,
medical doctors aren't rocket scientists and pronunciations outside of their
field of expertise are possibly just as ignorant as those by hard-hat and
steel-toe wearers.

Post by David
Just to put my $.02 worth in..........Maybe bike helmets haven't saved
lives in Canada but I would be willing to bet a donut that many EMT's
everywhere else would say they have saved lives in their country.

Oh, yes. My brother is a (medical) doctor specialising in trauma medicine
and occasionally nags at me to wear one, although he has never treated a
casualty in a bike accident where a helmet may have even possibly saved a
life. However, he recently attended a pedestrian who had drunkenly
strolled into a major road and been knocked down, striking his head and
subsequently dying despite everyone's best efforts. Yet bro never
suggests the need for walking helmets. :-)
R "statistical sample of one".

[JFJones]

Post by Doug Huffman
Yes, exactly. I submit that the pro's are not well educated enough to
recognize the significance of an anecdote or a "sample of one". Further,
medical doctors aren't rocket scientists and pronunciations outside of their
field of expertise are possibly just as ignorant as those by hard-hat and
steel-toe wearers.

The Toronto Star published a letter from a neurologist that claimed
helmet use save lives. He was challenged in another letter shortly
after to substantiate the claim. It has been two weeks and he hasn't
replied.

Post by Doug Huffman

Post by David
Just to put my $.02 worth in..........Maybe bike helmets haven't saved
lives in Canada but I would be willing to bet a donut that many EMT's
everywhere else would say they have saved lives in their country.

Oh, yes. My brother is a (medical) doctor specialising in trauma medicine
and occasionally nags at me to wear one, although he has never treated a
casualty in a bike accident where a helmet may have even possibly saved a
life. However, he recently attended a pedestrian who had drunkenly
strolled into a major road and been knocked down, striking his head and
subsequently dying despite everyone's best efforts. Yet bro never
suggests the need for walking helmets. :-)
R "statistical sample of one".

[Chris Phillipo]

Newsgroups: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent, aus.bicycle, ba.bicycles, bc.cycling, dc.biking, hr.rec.bicycles, nyc.bicycles, uk.rec.cycling

Post by Doug Huffman
Yes, exactly. I submit that the pro's are not well educated enough to
recognize the significance of an anecdote or a "sample of one". Further,
medical doctors aren't rocket scientists and pronunciations outside of their
field of expertise are possibly just as ignorant as those by hard-hat and
steel-toe wearers.

The Toronto Star published a letter from a neurologist that claimed
helmet use save lives. He was challenged in another letter shortly
after to substantiate the claim. It has been two weeks and he hasn't
replied.

The Toronto star is not a chat board.

[JFJones]

Post by David

Post by JFJones
* One of BHIT claims is that it has been shown in Canada that helmet
use has saved lives. This claim cannot be substantiated and is
blatantly false.

Just to put my $.02 worth in..........Maybe bike helmets haven't saved
lives in Canada but I would be willing to bet a donut that many EMT's
everywhere else would say they have saved lives in their country. From the
looks of this flame war it appears there are at least some Canadian's
with heads so hard they don't need helmets.

Never let science get in the way of the beliefs of an EMT.
....

[Peter Clinch]

Post by JFJones
* One of BHIT claims is that it has been shown in Canada that helmet
use has saved lives. This claim cannot be substantiated and is
blatantly false.

One of their range of New! Improved! semi-truths is that the Ontario
helmet law hasn't resulted in a large decline in cyclist numbers, so we
Don't Have To Worry About That Any More. Spoilsports have pointed out
that very little has been done to enforce it, unlike e.g. Western
Australia where enforcement happened and cyclist numbers went down
significantly. They also tried to write off all the teenage cycling
decline in the whole of Australia by pointing out that the single state
of Victoria's legal driving age was reduced.

See http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1027 for more...

Pete.

[Eric®]

Post by Paul - xxx
Who gives a shit, I read and post to uk.rec.cycling.

Post by Mark McN
A lot of cyclists don't.

UK cyclists do, who are all that concern me, really.

Which is why you posted this to bc.cycling.

Eric Schild

[Succorso]

Post by DiscoDuck
I don't give a crap what "studies" show (whether effective or not).

plonk

[DiscoDuck]

Post by DiscoDuck
I don't give a crap what "studies" show (whether effective or not).

plonk

Weird. First reply to state "plonk." Still unclear where he stands.
I can only assume for freedom of choice.

[John Tserkezis]

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

Don't know what it's like in your part of the world, but here in australia,
if you tried to drive with helmet, you WILL get stopped for at least pure
curiosity.

[DiscoDuck]

Post by John Tserkezis

Post by DiscoDuck
The fact is you should have freedom of choice. Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

Don't know what it's like in your part of the world, but here in australia,
if you tried to drive with helmet, you WILL get stopped for at least pure
curiosity.

LOL! THAT was hilarious.

[slim]

Post by DiscoDuck
Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

Bikes don't have airbags.

[David Martin]

Post by slim

Post by DiscoDuck
Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

Bikes don't have airbags.

There are some airbags on bikes though..

..d

[Mark McN]

Post by David Martin

Post by slim
Bikes don't have airbags.

There are some airbags on bikes though..

AASHTA:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/airbag-helmet.html

[DiscoDuck]

Post by slim

Post by DiscoDuck
Motorists currently
have a choice in regards to helmets. Why can't cyclists?

Bikes don't have airbags.

But do not headi injuries occur in motor vehicle accidents? OR have
they been eliminated entirely?