Discussion:
Cambie Street
(too old to reply)
DiscoDuck
2005-12-05 22:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
the-vehicular-cyclist
2005-12-06 14:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
DD, I doubt whether advocates of treating a cyclist as a driver of a
vehicle believe that this principle applies in all circumstances. But
in the vast majority of cases, driving practices and rules need to be
the same from a safety point of view.

A detour is not a driving practice but you don't say whether Cambie
Street is open to motorists and pedestrians, or how impractical the
detour isfor cyclists. If Cambie Street is open to motorized traffic,
then it ought to be open to cyclists too.. Even if it is closed to
motor vehicles, if cyclists would not disrupt construction operations
nor increase risk to safety then the city should be asked to allow
cyclists to use it.

I am a strong advocate of cyclists having the same rights AND the same
responsibilities as a driver of a vehicle. Obviously this doesn't apply
where the size and other characteristics of the vehicles being driven
are different. Truck and car drivers have the same rights and
responsibilities, but are not treated identically under Canadian
traffic laws.

TVC
DiscoDuck
2005-12-06 19:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
DD, I doubt whether advocates of treating a cyclist as a driver of a
vehicle believe that this principle applies in all circumstances. But
in the vast majority of cases, driving practices and rules need to be
the same from a safety point of view.
A detour is not a driving practice but you don't say whether Cambie
Street is open to motorists and pedestrians,
My point was it closed to cyclists, therefore I thought it clear it is
open for motorists.

or how impractical the
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
detour isfor cyclists. If Cambie Street is open to motorized traffic,
then it ought to be open to cyclists too.. Even if it is closed to
motor vehicles, if cyclists would not disrupt construction operations
nor increase risk to safety then the city should be asked to allow
cyclists to use it
I am a strong advocate of cyclists having the same rights AND the same
responsibilities as a driver of a vehicle. Obviously this doesn't apply
where the size and other characteristics of the vehicles being driven
are different. Truck and car drivers have the same rights and
responsibilities, but are not treated identically under Canadian
traffic laws.
My point exactly. Due to size, weight and agility, there are
differences between bikes and motor vehicles. Far more differences
than similarities. That is why I coast along the sidewalks, safely.
Likewise when crossing the street. I just make sure I am courteous
about other traffic
the-vehicular-cyclist
2005-12-07 02:57:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
DD, I doubt whether advocates of treating a cyclist as a driver of a
vehicle believe that this principle applies in all circumstances. But
in the vast majority of cases, driving practices and rules need to be
the same from a safety point of view.
A detour is not a driving practice but you don't say whether Cambie
Street is open to motorists and pedestrians,
My point was it closed to cyclists, therefore I thought it clear it is
open for motorists.
or how impractical the
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
detour isfor cyclists. If Cambie Street is open to motorized traffic,
then it ought to be open to cyclists too.. Even if it is closed to
motor vehicles, if cyclists would not disrupt construction operations
nor increase risk to safety then the city should be asked to allow
cyclists to use it
I am a strong advocate of cyclists having the same rights AND the same
responsibilities as a driver of a vehicle. Obviously this doesn't apply
where the size and other characteristics of the vehicles being driven
are different. Truck and car drivers have the same rights and
responsibilities, but are not treated identically under Canadian
traffic laws.
My point exactly. Due to size, weight and agility, there are
differences between bikes and motor vehicles. Far more differences
than similarities. That is why I coast along the sidewalks, safely.
Likewise when crossing the street. I just make sure I am courteous
about other traffic
No you are wrong. The riding practices are virtually the same. You
would be breaking the law in most jurisdictions, and I doubt even you
believe that motorists should break the law based on their individual
perceptions of safety. There's also plenty of evidence showing sidewalk
cycling is riskier than riding on the road. I suggest you look at John
Forester's research in "Effective Cycling". It explains why cyclists
are better off being treated as drivers of a vehicle. When cyclists are
not treated as drivers they are treated as second class road users, and
you get silly and dangerous laws like in BC which makes it illegal for
you to ride on the roadway when paved bike paths or paved shoulders
exist.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-07 04:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
DD, I doubt whether advocates of treating a cyclist as a driver of a
vehicle believe that this principle applies in all circumstances. But
in the vast majority of cases, driving practices and rules need to be
the same from a safety point of view.
A detour is not a driving practice but you don't say whether Cambie
Street is open to motorists and pedestrians,
My point was it closed to cyclists, therefore I thought it clear it is
open for motorists.
or how impractical the
Post by the-vehicular-cyclist
detour isfor cyclists. If Cambie Street is open to motorized traffic,
then it ought to be open to cyclists too.. Even if it is closed to
motor vehicles, if cyclists would not disrupt construction operations
nor increase risk to safety then the city should be asked to allow
cyclists to use it
I am a strong advocate of cyclists having the same rights AND the same
responsibilities as a driver of a vehicle. Obviously this doesn't apply
where the size and other characteristics of the vehicles being driven
are different. Truck and car drivers have the same rights and
responsibilities, but are not treated identically under Canadian
traffic laws.
My point exactly. Due to size, weight and agility, there are
differences between bikes and motor vehicles. Far more differences
than similarities. That is why I coast along the sidewalks, safely.
Likewise when crossing the street. I just make sure I am courteous
about other traffic
No you are wrong. The riding practices are virtually the same. You
would be breaking the law in most jurisdictions, and I doubt even you
believe that motorists should break the law based on their individual
perceptions of safety. There's also plenty of evidence showing sidewalk
cycling is riskier than riding on the road. I suggest you look at John
Forester's research in "Effective Cycling". It explains why cyclists
are better off being treated as drivers of a vehicle. When cyclists are
not treated as drivers they are treated as second class road users, and
you get silly and dangerous laws like in BC which makes it illegal for
you to ride on the roadway when paved bike paths or paved shoulders
exist.
Wrong about what? A Car and bicycle not being the same? How they have
more difference than similarities? About how safe it is to coast
along a sidewalk and crosswalk? How then have I done it for decades
without hurting anyone, or anyone being hurt? Same with many many
many other cyclists (in my opinion, the majority).
Luke
2005-12-09 03:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Wrong about what? A Car and bicycle not being the same? How they have
more difference than similarities? About how safe it is to coast
along a sidewalk and crosswalk? How then have I done it for decades
without hurting anyone, or anyone being hurt? Same with many many
many other cyclists (in my opinion, the majority).
Around here - center of the universe, Toronto! - the common thread
uniting the an overwhelming majority of bicycle/motor-vehicle accidents
is that the cyclist was riding from the sidewalk onto the roadway at
the time of the mishap. Typically, the bicycle was ridden into the path
of an oncoming vehicle.

Notwithstanding its illegality, the perception that sidewalks are the
safest place for bicycles persists - especially among youths and
cycling novices. What's often overlooked is that at some point the
cyclists will HAVE to leave the security of the sidewalk and mingle
with motorized traffic. Whether it's pedestrian traffic, or the
inevitable intersection, or just the need to make better time the
cyclists will certainly insert himself into traffic, often haphazardly,
and to the consternation of motorists who don't - and have good reason
not to! - expect a body darting out into traffic.

Luke
DiscoDuck
2005-12-09 03:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke
Post by DiscoDuck
Wrong about what? A Car and bicycle not being the same? How they have
more difference than similarities? About how safe it is to coast
along a sidewalk and crosswalk? How then have I done it for decades
without hurting anyone, or anyone being hurt? Same with many many
many other cyclists (in my opinion, the majority).
Around here - center of the universe, Toronto! - the common thread
uniting the an overwhelming majority of bicycle/motor-vehicle accidents
is that the cyclist was riding from the sidewalk onto the roadway at
the time of the mishap. Typically, the bicycle was ridden into the path
of an oncoming vehicle.
Notwithstanding its illegality, the perception that sidewalks are the
safest place for bicycles persists - especially among youths and
cycling novices. What's often overlooked is that at some point the
cyclists will HAVE to leave the security of the sidewalk and mingle
with motorized traffic. Whether it's pedestrian traffic, or the
inevitable intersection, or just the need to make better time the
cyclists will certainly insert himself into traffic, often haphazardly,
and to the consternation of motorists who don't - and have good reason
not to! - expect a body darting out into traffic.
I'm speaking of coasting safely along the side walk for brief periods
of time. Not as the main way of transport. Having said that I'd be
interested in reading more about the common thread you mention. Can
you point us towards where this is stated (research statistics, etc).
I'm not how it would differ in Toronto from other metropolitan areas.
Luke
2005-12-09 11:16:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Luke
Notwithstanding its illegality, the perception that sidewalks are the
safest place for bicycles persists - especially among youths and
cycling novices. What's often overlooked is that at some point the
cyclists will HAVE to leave the security of the sidewalk and mingle
with motorized traffic. Whether it's pedestrian traffic, or the
inevitable intersection, or just the need to make better time the
cyclists will certainly insert himself into traffic, often haphazardly,
and to the consternation of motorists who don't - and have good reason
not to! - expect a body darting out into traffic.
I'm speaking of coasting safely along the side walk for brief periods
of time. Not as the main way of transport. Having said that I'd be
interested in reading more about the common thread you mention. Can
you point us towards where this is stated (research statistics, etc).
I'm not how it would differ in Toronto from other metropolitan areas.
Disco, I confess this info was passed along during informal
correspondence and conversations with cycling advocates and police
officers; admittedly it was taken on faith, and I've never confirmed it
by referencing a study. However, a little poking around and this popped
up:
[URL:http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-veh
icle/pdf/car-bike_collision_report_ch4.pdf]. **[see footnote]**

Pertinent to this thread is the following passage:
[quote]

Sidewalk Cycling:

One of this study's more surprising findings is the degree to which
sidewalk cycling is involved in Toronto's car/bike collisions. While
some types of collisions never involve sidewalk cycling (Motorist
Overtaking and Dooring incidents, for example), of those that can occur
while the cyclist is riding on the road or the sidewalk, over half
involved sidewalk cycling......

[/quote]


Firstly, mea-culpa: following a cursory reading of the study's
conclusion, I concede that my description that sidewalk riding is
involved in an 'overwhelming' majority of bike/auto accidents is not
accurate. Instead, the study claims that a majority of cyclists'
collisions [I now take this to be collisions not limited to those with
autos] that can occur involve sidewalks. Conversely, since the data
underlying this study are roughly 7 years old, perhaps, the findings
may not accurately reflect the present reality.

Also in the study's conclusion this finding:

[quote]
Regional Differences in Collision Patterns:

The combination of problems described above (sidewalk cycling and
improper stopping) seems to have played a role in roughly 20% of all
collisions, and was most common in the following crash types: Drive Out
at Controlled Intersection, Drive Out from Lane or Driveway, and Right
Turn at Red Light. These kinds of collisions were more likely to occur
in suburban areas of the city, and tended to involve young
cyclists.....
[/quote]

It seems the dynamics involving sidewalk cyclists and autos are more
involved than the simplistic 'cyclist riding into the path of a
vehicle' scenario of my post. I'm glad of your request for stats on the
subject; it's obliged me to re-examine - or rather, examine! - my
perspective.

DD, of particular interest to you may be the few paragraphs
specifically focussing on collisions involving crosswalks and
cyclists. Print out the 16 page conclusion and add it to your bathroom
study material - it makes for interesting reading!

Luke




___FOOTNOTES___

**** As the url indicates the link is to a pdf file containing the
conclusion of the 'Toronto Bicycle/Motor-Vehicle Collision Study', an
inquiry focussing on *reported* Toronto bike accidents between 1997 and
1998. Though I posted only the link to the conclusion to the study, all
its segments are available for d/l @
[URL:http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-veh
icle/index.htm]
DiscoDuck
2005-12-11 01:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Luke, but I can't help but think such "studies" are done to
perpetuate such thoughts, rather than truly determine the risk
involved. The statement "While most complaints about sidewalk cyclists
originate in central areas of the city, where pedestrian traffic is
heavy, few bicycle/motor-vehicle collisions involving sidewalk cycling
are reported in these areas" (page 53 and 54).

IN other words, even though people complain about cyclists on the
sidewalk in the central city areas, there are few bicycle/motor-vehicle
collisions.

I also find it interesting that they point out that kids are "over
represented in sidewalk cycling crashes." and......"Since children are
encouraged to ride on the sidewalk until they are old enough and have
acquired the necessary skills and experience to ride safely on the
road. Bicycles with wheels 24 inches in diameter or smaller (typically
ridden by young cyclists) are allowed on sidewalks in Toronto."

So as long as you're a child without an experienced skill set for
cycling, it's OK? And they ADMIT that it's inexperienced children
causing the accidents?

Maybe the answer is to BAN small children from cycling on the sidewalk
and make them do so on the road?

Ridiculous of course, but so is suggesting cycling should be banned on
sidewalks as it is dangerous. It's not and this is proved by
cyclist's everyday in every city.
Just common sense is all that is required. Don't race down sidewalks
at 50 KM an hour. That is risky and not courteous.

Again, such laws are an answer to pet peeves (complaints), not risky
behavior.

The Police you spoke of are simply talking out of their ass. Police
are people too and often lie to try and "prove" a point. They
clain to witness such accidents often. But when pressed for hard
evidence, they won't be able to prove it. I've done this several
times with officers I know personally, only to prove them wrong. They
claim they witness such accidents frequently. If you pressed them for
specific examples, they would not provide them. They can't even give
a rough estimate of when they witnessed one of these accidents. When
you give them time and then follow-up about the evidence they claimed
to be able to get, they get mad at me and threaten to ticket me at
anything and everything-period. This again, is ego as they know
they've been caught in a lie.
Post by Luke
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Luke
Notwithstanding its illegality, the perception that sidewalks are the
safest place for bicycles persists - especially among youths and
cycling novices. What's often overlooked is that at some point the
cyclists will HAVE to leave the security of the sidewalk and mingle
with motorized traffic. Whether it's pedestrian traffic, or the
inevitable intersection, or just the need to make better time the
cyclists will certainly insert himself into traffic, often haphazardly,
and to the consternation of motorists who don't - and have good reason
not to! - expect a body darting out into traffic.
I'm speaking of coasting safely along the side walk for brief periods
of time. Not as the main way of transport. Having said that I'd be
interested in reading more about the common thread you mention. Can
you point us towards where this is stated (research statistics, etc).
I'm not how it would differ in Toronto from other metropolitan areas.
Disco, I confess this info was passed along during informal
correspondence and conversations with cycling advocates and police
officers; admittedly it was taken on faith, and I've never confirmed it
by referencing a study. However, a little poking around and this popped
[URL:http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-veh
icle/pdf/car-bike_collision_report_ch4.pdf]. **[see footnote]**
[quote]
One of this study's more surprising findings is the degree to which
sidewalk cycling is involved in Toronto's car/bike collisions. While
some types of collisions never involve sidewalk cycling (Motorist
Overtaking and Dooring incidents, for example), of those that can occur
while the cyclist is riding on the road or the sidewalk, over half
involved sidewalk cycling......
[/quote]
Firstly, mea-culpa: following a cursory reading of the study's
conclusion, I concede that my description that sidewalk riding is
involved in an 'overwhelming' majority of bike/auto accidents is not
accurate. Instead, the study claims that a majority of cyclists'
collisions [I now take this to be collisions not limited to those with
autos] that can occur involve sidewalks. Conversely, since the data
underlying this study are roughly 7 years old, perhaps, the findings
may not accurately reflect the present reality.
[quote]
The combination of problems described above (sidewalk cycling and
improper stopping) seems to have played a role in roughly 20% of all
collisions, and was most common in the following crash types: Drive Out
at Controlled Intersection, Drive Out from Lane or Driveway, and Right
Turn at Red Light. These kinds of collisions were more likely to occur
in suburban areas of the city, and tended to involve young
cyclists.....
[/quote]
It seems the dynamics involving sidewalk cyclists and autos are more
involved than the simplistic 'cyclist riding into the path of a
vehicle' scenario of my post. I'm glad of your request for stats on the
subject; it's obliged me to re-examine - or rather, examine! - my
perspective.
DD, of particular interest to you may be the few paragraphs
specifically focussing on collisions involving crosswalks and
cyclists. Print out the 16 page conclusion and add it to your bathroom
study material - it makes for interesting reading!
Luke
___FOOTNOTES___
**** As the url indicates the link is to a pdf file containing the
conclusion of the 'Toronto Bicycle/Motor-Vehicle Collision Study', an
inquiry focussing on *reported* Toronto bike accidents between 1997 and
1998. Though I posted only the link to the conclusion to the study, all
[URL:http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-veh
icle/index.htm]
Király
2005-12-12 18:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
IN other words, even though people complain about cyclists on the
sidewalk in the central city areas, there are few bicycle/motor-vehicle
collisions.
People who cycle in the inner city tend to be more likely to ride on the
road. A higher proportion of cyclists use the sidewalk in the suburbs
vs. cyclists in the central city. So it is not surprising that reported
incidents of accidents involving cycling on the sidewalk are higher in
the suburbs.
Post by DiscoDuck
I also find it interesting that they point out that kids are "over
represented in sidewalk cycling crashes." and......"Since children are
encouraged to ride on the sidewalk until they are old enough and have
acquired the necessary skills and experience to ride safely on the
road. Bicycles with wheels 24 inches in diameter or smaller (typically
ridden by young cyclists) are allowed on sidewalks in Toronto."
There is no such rule here in Vancouver, for good reason. The sidewalk
is simply not safer for bicycles than the road. If a kid is old enough
to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then he is old
enough to ride on the road. I took a bike skills course when I was seven
years old that taught us to ride on the road and not the sidewalk.
Suggesting kids are safer riding on the sidewalk than on the roadway is
perpetuating the myth that riding on the roadway is more dangerous than
it really is.
Post by DiscoDuck
Maybe the answer is to BAN small children from cycling on the sidewalk
and make them do so on the road? Ridiculous of course,
For kids old enough to ride unsupervised it is not ridiculous at all. My
two year old rides a tiny bike with training wheels. She is obviously
not old enough to ride anywhere unsupervised. So she rides along on the
sidewalk at walking speed, with me always at arms' reach. When she is
old enough to ride all by herself without my supervision then I will
tell her to stay on the road and off the sidewalk. I don't want her
getting creamed by a turning car when she rides off the sidewalk and
onto the road when she gets to an intersection [the classic
bike-on-sidewalk accident; see example below].
Post by DiscoDuck
but so is suggesting cycling should be banned on sidewalks as it is
dangerous. It's not...
You and I disagree about this, but here's an example of how riding on the
road is safer than on the sidewalk. A few months ago a twelve year old
was riding his bike westbound on the north sidewalk on Austin Avenue in
Coquitlam. An eastbound car was making a left turn. The left-turning
car did not see the cyclist up on the sidewalk, and there was a collision
when the kid rode off the sidewalk and into the crosswalk where the
car was making his left turn. This would not have happened had the kid
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
Post by DiscoDuck
...and this is proved by cyclist's everyday in every city.
You have used this false argument many, many times in several threads.
Just because many people do it and don't get into accidents does not prove
that it is safe. Thousands of people smoke tobacco every day and don't
get cancer. My own great-grandfather smoked 15-20 filterless
roll-your-own cigarettes every day for over 75 years. He lived to be 95
and never got cancer, lung disease or any other tobacco-related disease.
Did he and others prove that smoking tobacco is safe? Of course not. He
proved that he was lucky and nothing more.

K.
Luke
2005-12-13 05:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
IN other words, even though people complain about cyclists on the
sidewalk in the central city areas, there are few bicycle/motor-vehicle
collisions.
People who cycle in the inner city tend to be more likely to ride on the
road. A higher proportion of cyclists use the sidewalk in the suburbs
vs. cyclists in the central city. So it is not surprising that reported
incidents of accidents involving cycling on the sidewalk are higher in
the suburbs.
My experience corroborates this. Often the most intimidating roadways -
arterial 6 lane shoulderless throughways with traffic of 80+ k/h -
service the city core from suburban hinterlands. Indeed, one of the
most challenging aspects of cycling in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
is entering or exiting the city center. Once within the downtown core,
slower traffic speeds, cycling lanes, and the variation of vehicle
types (rickshaws, pedestrians, trolleys and buses), generally make for
a more tolerant and agreeable environment for cycling.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
I also find it interesting that they point out that kids are "over
represented in sidewalk cycling crashes." and......"Since children are
encouraged to ride on the sidewalk until they are old enough and have
acquired the necessary skills and experience to ride safely on the
road. Bicycles with wheels 24 inches in diameter or smaller (typically
ridden by young cyclists) are allowed on sidewalks in Toronto."
There is no such rule here in Vancouver, for good reason. The sidewalk
is simply not safer for bicycles than the road. If a kid is old enough
to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then he is old
enough to ride on the road. I took a bike skills course when I was seven
years old that taught us to ride on the road and not the sidewalk.
Suggesting kids are safer riding on the sidewalk than on the roadway is
perpetuating the myth that riding on the roadway is more dangerous than
it really is.
I have misgivings - not such much with the premise of your contention,
but with its amplification into a general dictum. 'If a kid is old
enough to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then
he is old enough to ride on the road' - this argument falls short in
two areas: a) it fails to account for the types and degrees of urban
environments and b) it doesn't do enough to qualify the competence of
the cyclist - the lack of supervision is not enough. Through my
childhood I rode unsupervised; looking back now, it's clear I was an
accident in the making, and sometimes in the process.

It's typical of children to be easily distracted, lack the ability to
focus for extended periods of time, and have difficulty grasping the
complexity of movement that characterizes dense urban environments - in
short, they possess qualities that undermine their safety as cyclists.
(Let me add that many adults suffer from these traits as well!).

The observation that some children *may* make competent cyclists and be
suited to riding on *some* roads should not be extrapolated into a
general rule; they should have recourse to paths (i.e., the sidewalk)
where the consequences of their limited appreciation have less
detrimental effects - to wit, a collision with a pedestrian rather than
a vehicle.

Consider this: in many respects driving a car is simpler than riding a
bicycle. There's no balance required; automatic transmissions preclude
the distraction of manually shifting gears; hazards for cyclists (wet
metal manhole covers and storm sewer grates, potholes, etc..) can be
ignored; technical advances such as anti-lock brakes require less skill
of the driver, etc.. - before I was ten I had mastered the rudiments
and could drive around the neighbourhood unsupervised.

No responsible individual would suggest I was qualified driver. That's
because competently controlling a vehicle is a thing apart from
understanding the subtleties of its interactions with other vehicles in
traffic, and the extent to which they constitute hazards to all
concerned. I'm overstating the case to be sure, but I hope you take my
point. The matter is not so much the danger inherent to riding on
sidewalks per se - it's variable, affected by many factors - but with a
child's capacity to perceive and react to the dangers of riding on the
road. Indeed, as an alleged adult I'm still discovering these. And if
one cannot anticipate a hazard, there's no avoiding it - regardless of
where the fault lies.

There's one aspect to cycling on the sidewalk that recommends it as
being safer over riding on the road: among vehicular traffic you are
vulnerable to the mistakes of other motorists as well as your own;
while on the sidewalk you suffer from your own shortcomings only (minor
mishaps with pedestrians excluded). Consequently, a sidewalk cyclist
such as Disco who **is aware** of the dangers lurking at every
instersection and crosswalk is justified in his belief of safety: he
will NEVER be doored, rear ended, or cut off by a car while on the
sidewalk.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
Maybe the answer is to BAN small children from cycling on the sidewalk
and make them do so on the road? Ridiculous of course,
For kids old enough to ride unsupervised it is not ridiculous at all. My
two year old rides a tiny bike with training wheels. She is obviously
not old enough to ride anywhere unsupervised. So she rides along on the
sidewalk at walking speed, with me always at arms' reach. When she is
old enough to ride all by herself without my supervision then I will
tell her to stay on the road and off the sidewalk. I don't want her
getting creamed by a turning car when she rides off the sidewalk and
onto the road when she gets to an intersection [the classic
bike-on-sidewalk accident; see example below].
Then impress upon her that she must absolutely ascertain whether it's
safe to proceed before leaving the sidewalk. Problem solved. If a child
cannot be trusted to adopt this simple practice, then trusting them to
their own abilities while on the road - where the perils posed by autos
are constant rather than periodic - is inviting trouble.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
but so is suggesting cycling should be banned on sidewalks as it is
dangerous. It's not...
You and I disagree about this, but here's an example of how riding on the
road is safer than on the sidewalk. A few months ago a twelve year old
was riding his bike westbound on the north sidewalk on Austin Avenue in
Coquitlam. An eastbound car was making a left turn. The left-turning
car did not see the cyclist up on the sidewalk, and there was a collision
when the kid rode off the sidewalk and into the crosswalk where the
car was making his left turn. This would not have happened had the kid
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
I'm not familiar with the intersection; keep that in mind when
considering the following. Yes, the accident may have been avoided if
the child was on the road, but it *certainly* would have been prevented
had the child followed the golden rule (stopped and looked all ways
before crossing the street). To my mind there is nothing about riding
on the sidewalk that precludes submitting to this rule - but children,
being children.... From your description I'd consider that the child's
riding on the sidewalk to be a peripheral factor in the accident, not
the essential, determining element; which, strictly speaking, has more
to do with being a poor pedestrian.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
...and this is proved by cyclist's everyday in every city.
You have used this false argument many, many times in several threads.
Just because many people do it and don't get into accidents does not prove
that it is safe.
Neither would the fact that many sidewalk cyclists are involved in
accidents disprove it - There are lies, damn lies, and statistics...
Post by Király
Thousands of people smoke tobacco every day and don't
get cancer. My own great-grandfather smoked 15-20 filterless
roll-your-own cigarettes every day for over 75 years. He lived to be 95
and never got cancer, lung disease or any other tobacco-related disease.
Did he and others prove that smoking tobacco is safe? Of course not. He
proved that he was lucky and nothing more.
The analog is awkward: the term 'healthy' should be subsituted for
'safe'. No, smoking is not healthy - I'm not encouraging anyone to
light up!; but can one indulge the habit without suffering from its
catastrophic effects -i.e., safely? Your great-grandfather, and
millions of others, have proven that the answer is yes.

More to the point, a healthy, long-lived smoker isn't so much lucky,
than the exception that proves the rule: rare is the truth that is not
subject to extenuations. In the case of your great-grandfather they
were fortuitous genetics and an exceptional constitution; where it
concerns the hazards of sidewalk cycling, they are an awareness and
respect for the hazards lurking beyond every curb.

Luke
DiscoDuck
2005-12-13 06:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke
I have misgivings - not such much with the premise of your contention,
but with its amplification into a general dictum. 'If a kid is old
enough to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then
he is old enough to ride on the road' - this argument falls short in
two areas: a) it fails to account for the types and degrees of urban
environments and b) it doesn't do enough to qualify the competence of
the cyclist - the lack of supervision is not enough. Through my
childhood I rode unsupervised; looking back now, it's clear I was an
accident in the making, and sometimes in the process.
Did it happen? No. That was not a result of luck. Most people
learned (especially "back then") unsupervised when children. Yet today
with all the "awareness" here is not dramatic drop in accidents
involving children.
Post by Luke
It's typical of children to be easily distracted, lack the ability to
focus for extended periods of time, and have difficulty grasping the
complexity of movement that characterizes dense urban environments - in
short, they possess qualities that undermine their safety as cyclists.
(Let me add that many adults suffer from these traits as well!).
The observation that some children *may* make competent cyclists and be
suited to riding on *some* roads should not be extrapolated into a
general rule; they should have recourse to paths (i.e., the sidewalk)
where the consequences of their limited appreciation have less
detrimental effects - to wit, a collision with a pedestrian rather than
a vehicle.
Consider this: in many respects driving a car is simpler than riding a
bicycle. There's no balance required; automatic transmissions preclude
the distraction of manually shifting gears; hazards for cyclists (wet
metal manhole covers and storm sewer grates, potholes, etc..) can be
ignored; technical advances such as anti-lock brakes require less skill
of the driver, etc.. - before I was ten I had mastered the rudiments
and could drive around the neighbourhood unsupervised.
No responsible individual would suggest I was qualified driver. That's
because competently controlling a vehicle is a thing apart from
understanding the subtleties of its interactions with other vehicles in
traffic, and the extent to which they constitute hazards to all
concerned. I'm overstating the case to be sure, but I hope you take my
point. The matter is not so much the danger inherent to riding on
sidewalks per se - it's variable, affected by many factors - but with a
child's capacity to perceive and react to the dangers of riding on the
road. Indeed, as an alleged adult I'm still discovering these. And if
one cannot anticipate a hazard, there's no avoiding it - regardless of
where the fault lies.
There's one aspect to cycling on the sidewalk that recommends it as
being safer over riding on the road: among vehicular traffic you are
vulnerable to the mistakes of other motorists as well as your own;
while on the sidewalk you suffer from your own shortcomings only (minor
mishaps with pedestrians excluded). Consequently, a sidewalk cyclist
such as Disco who **is aware** of the dangers lurking at every
instersection and crosswalk is justified in his belief of safety: he
will NEVER be doored, rear ended, or cut off by a car while on the
sidewalk.
Good points Luke. Well thought out. Yes, a series of variables. As
my mom use to say "If my grandmother had balls, she'd be my
grandmother."

All these examples people here write of near miss's, or they know
someone who would have died if it wasn't for this, that or the other
thing, is nothing but here-say.

Often when pressed for specifics (dates, locations, names), these
claims fall through (and people get angry at you for challenging them).
Post by Luke
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
Maybe the answer is to BAN small children from cycling on the sidewalk
and make them do so on the road? Ridiculous of course,
For kids old enough to ride unsupervised it is not ridiculous at all. My
two year old rides a tiny bike with training wheels. She is obviously
not old enough to ride anywhere unsupervised. So she rides along on the
sidewalk at walking speed, with me always at arms' reach. When she is
old enough to ride all by herself without my supervision then I will
tell her to stay on the road and off the sidewalk. I don't want her
getting creamed by a turning car when she rides off the sidewalk and
onto the road when she gets to an intersection [the classic
bike-on-sidewalk accident; see example below].
Then impress upon her that she must absolutely ascertain whether it's
safe to proceed before leaving the sidewalk. Problem solved. If a child
cannot be trusted to adopt this simple practice, then trusting them to
their own abilities while on the road - where the perils posed by autos
are constant rather than periodic - is inviting trouble.
Exactly. Simply look where you're going.
Post by Luke
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
but so is suggesting cycling should be banned on sidewalks as it is
dangerous. It's not...
You and I disagree about this, but here's an example of how riding on the
road is safer than on the sidewalk. A few months ago a twelve year old
was riding his bike westbound on the north sidewalk on Austin Avenue in
Coquitlam. An eastbound car was making a left turn. The left-turning
car did not see the cyclist up on the sidewalk, and there was a collision
when the kid rode off the sidewalk and into the crosswalk where the
car was making his left turn. This would not have happened had the kid
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
I'm not familiar with the intersection; keep that in mind when
considering the following. Yes, the accident may have been avoided if
the child was on the road, but it *certainly* would have been prevented
had the child followed the golden rule (stopped and looked all ways
before crossing the street). To my mind there is nothing about riding
on the sidewalk that precludes submitting to this rule - but children,
being children.... From your description I'd consider that the child's
riding on the sidewalk to be a peripheral factor in the accident, not
the essential, determining element; which, strictly speaking, has more
to do with being a poor pedestrian.
Yup. I think pedestrians are less likely to pay attention, than
cyclists. Cyclists on sidewalks are aware of the safety issue, and as
long as they keep alert and look where they are going (including when
"leaving" the sidewalk), all will be fine.
But what if an anvil falls from the sky?
Post by Luke
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
...and this is proved by cyclist's everyday in every city.
You have used this false argument many, many times in several threads.
Just because many people do it and don't get into accidents does not prove
that it is safe.
Neither would the fact that many sidewalk cyclists are involved in
accidents disprove it - There are lies, damn lies, and statistics...
The problem I have here, is that I don't think many sidewalk cyclists
are in involved in accidents. It would be a fraction of a fraction of
cycling events.
Post by Luke
Post by Király
Thousands of people smoke tobacco every day and don't
get cancer. My own great-grandfather smoked 15-20 filterless
roll-your-own cigarettes every day for over 75 years. He lived to be 95
and never got cancer, lung disease or any other tobacco-related disease.
Did he and others prove that smoking tobacco is safe? Of course not. He
proved that he was lucky and nothing more.
The analog is awkward: the term 'healthy' should be subsituted for
'safe'. No, smoking is not healthy - I'm not encouraging anyone to
light up!; but can one indulge the habit without suffering from its
catastrophic effects -i.e., safely? Your great-grandfather, and
millions of others, have proven that the answer is yes.
Even the majority. But the risk is still far more measurable than
sidewalk cycling.
Post by Luke
More to the point, a healthy, long-lived smoker isn't so much lucky,
than the exception that proves the rule: rare is the truth that is not
subject to extenuations. In the case of your great-grandfather they
were fortuitous genetics and an exceptional constitution; where it
concerns the hazards of sidewalk cycling, they are an awareness and
respect for the hazards lurking beyond every curb.
My goodness you're eloquent.
Luke
2005-12-13 06:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
IN other words, even though people complain about cyclists on the
sidewalk in the central city areas, there are few bicycle/motor-vehicle
collisions.
People who cycle in the inner city tend to be more likely to ride on the
road. A higher proportion of cyclists use the sidewalk in the suburbs
vs. cyclists in the central city. So it is not surprising that reported
incidents of accidents involving cycling on the sidewalk are higher in
the suburbs.
My experience corroborates this. Often the most intimidating roadways -
arterial 6 lane shoulderless throughways with traffic of 80+ k/h -
service the city core from suburban hinterlands. Indeed, one of the
most challenging aspects of cycling in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
is entering or exiting the city center. Once within the downtown core,
slower traffic speeds, cycling lanes, and the variation of vehicle
types (rickshaws, pedestrians, trolleys and buses), generally make for
a more tolerant and agreeable environment for cycling.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
I also find it interesting that they point out that kids are "over
represented in sidewalk cycling crashes." and......"Since children are
encouraged to ride on the sidewalk until they are old enough and have
acquired the necessary skills and experience to ride safely on the
road. Bicycles with wheels 24 inches in diameter or smaller (typically
ridden by young cyclists) are allowed on sidewalks in Toronto."
There is no such rule here in Vancouver, for good reason. The sidewalk
is simply not safer for bicycles than the road. If a kid is old enough
to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then he is old
enough to ride on the road. I took a bike skills course when I was seven
years old that taught us to ride on the road and not the sidewalk.
Suggesting kids are safer riding on the sidewalk than on the roadway is
perpetuating the myth that riding on the roadway is more dangerous than
it really is.
I have misgivings - not so much with the premise of your contention,
but with its amplification into a general dictum. 'If a kid is old
enough to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then
he is old enough to ride on the road' - this argument falls short in
two areas: a) it fails to account for the types and degrees of urban
environments and b) it doesn't do enough to qualify the competence of
the cyclist - the lack of supervision is not enough. Through my
childhood I rode unsupervised; looking back now, it's clear I was an
accident in the making, and sometimes in the process.

It's typical of children to be easily distracted, lack the ability to
focus for extended periods of time, and have difficulty grasping the
complexity of movement that characterizes dense urban environments - in
short, they possess qualities that undermine their safety as cyclists.
(Let me add that many adults suffer from these traits as well!).

The observation that some children *may* make competent cyclists and be
suited to riding on *some* roads should not be extrapolated into a
general rule; they should have recourse to paths (i.e., the sidewalk)
where the consequences of their limited appreciation have less
detrimental effects - to wit, a collision with a pedestrian rather than
a vehicle.

Consider this: in many respects driving a car is simpler than riding a
bicycle. There's no balance required; automatic transmissions preclude
the distraction of manually shifting gears; hazards for cyclists (wet
metal manhole covers and storm sewer grates, potholes, etc..) can be
ignored; technical advances such as anti-lock brakes require less skill
of the driver, etc.. - before I was ten I had mastered the rudiments
and could drive around the neighbourhood unsupervised.

No responsible individual would suggest I was qualified driver. That's
because competently controlling a vehicle is a thing apart from
understanding the subtleties of its interactions with other vehicles in
traffic, and the extent to which they constitute hazards to all
concerned. I'm overstating the case to be sure, but I hope you take my
point. The matter is not so much the danger inherent to riding on
sidewalks per se - it's variable, affected by many factors - but with a
child's capacity to perceive and react to the dangers of riding on the
road. Indeed, as an alleged adult I'm still discovering these. And if
one cannot anticipate a hazard, there's no avoiding it - regardless of
where the fault lies.

There's one aspect to cycling on the sidewalk that recommends it as
being safer over riding on the road: among vehicular traffic you are
vulnerable to the mistakes of other motorists as well as your own;
while on the sidewalk you suffer from your own shortcomings only (minor
mishaps with pedestrians excluded). Consequently, a sidewalk cyclist
such as Disco who **is aware** of the dangers lurking at every
instersection and crosswalk is justified in his belief of safety: he
will NEVER be doored, rear ended, or cut off by a car while on the
sidewalk.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
Maybe the answer is to BAN small children from cycling on the sidewalk
and make them do so on the road? Ridiculous of course,
For kids old enough to ride unsupervised it is not ridiculous at all. My
two year old rides a tiny bike with training wheels. She is obviously
not old enough to ride anywhere unsupervised. So she rides along on the
sidewalk at walking speed, with me always at arms' reach. When she is
old enough to ride all by herself without my supervision then I will
tell her to stay on the road and off the sidewalk. I don't want her
getting creamed by a turning car when she rides off the sidewalk and
onto the road when she gets to an intersection [the classic
bike-on-sidewalk accident; see example below].
Then impress upon her that she must absolutely ascertain whether it's
safe to proceed before leaving the sidewalk. Problem solved. If a child
cannot be trusted to adopt this simple practice, then trusting them to
their own abilities while on the road - where the perils posed by autos
are constant rather than periodic - is inviting trouble.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
but so is suggesting cycling should be banned on sidewalks as it is
dangerous. It's not...
You and I disagree about this, but here's an example of how riding on the
road is safer than on the sidewalk. A few months ago a twelve year old
was riding his bike westbound on the north sidewalk on Austin Avenue in
Coquitlam. An eastbound car was making a left turn. The left-turning
car did not see the cyclist up on the sidewalk, and there was a collision
when the kid rode off the sidewalk and into the crosswalk where the
car was making his left turn. This would not have happened had the kid
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
I'm not familiar with the intersection; keep that in mind when
considering the following. Yes, the accident may have been avoided if
the child was on the road, but it *certainly* would have been prevented
had the child followed the golden rule (stopped and looked all ways
before crossing the street). To my mind there is nothing about riding
on the sidewalk that precludes submitting to this rule - but children,
being children.... From your description I'd consider that the child's
riding on the sidewalk to be a peripheral factor in the accident, not
the essential, determining element; which, strictly speaking, has more
to do with being a poor pedestrian.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
...and this is proved by cyclist's everyday in every city.
You have used this false argument many, many times in several threads.
Just because many people do it and don't get into accidents does not prove
that it is safe.
Neither would the fact that many sidewalk cyclists are involved in
accidents disprove it - There are lies, damn lies, and statistics...
Post by Király
Thousands of people smoke tobacco every day and don't
get cancer. My own great-grandfather smoked 15-20 filterless
roll-your-own cigarettes every day for over 75 years. He lived to be 95
and never got cancer, lung disease or any other tobacco-related disease.
Did he and others prove that smoking tobacco is safe? Of course not. He
proved that he was lucky and nothing more.
The analog is awkward: the term 'healthy' should be subsituted for
'safe'. No, smoking is not healthy - I'm not encouraging anyone to
light up!; but can one indulge the habit without suffering from its
catastrophic effects -i.e., safely? Your great-grandfather, and
millions of others, have proven that the answer is yes.

More to the point, a healthy, long-lived smoker isn't so much lucky,
than the exception that proves the rule: rare is the truth that is not
subject to extenuations. In the case of your great-grandfather they
were fortuitous genetics and an exceptional constitution; where it
concerns the hazards of sidewalk cycling, they are an awareness and
respect for the hazards lurking beyond every curb.

Luke
DiscoDuck
2005-12-13 18:54:38 UTC
Permalink
i've replied twice to this message an neither has showed. This is
message is just a test.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-13 04:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
IN other words, even though people complain about cyclists on the
sidewalk in the central city areas, there are few bicycle/motor-vehicle
collisions.
People who cycle in the inner city tend to be more likely to ride on the
road. A higher proportion of cyclists use the sidewalk in the suburbs
vs. cyclists in the central city. So it is not surprising that reported
incidents of accidents involving cycling on the sidewalk are higher in
the suburbs.
Post by DiscoDuck
I also find it interesting that they point out that kids are "over
represented in sidewalk cycling crashes." and......"Since children are
encouraged to ride on the sidewalk until they are old enough and have
acquired the necessary skills and experience to ride safely on the
road. Bicycles with wheels 24 inches in diameter or smaller (typically
ridden by young cyclists) are allowed on sidewalks in Toronto."
There is no such rule here in Vancouver, for good reason. The sidewalk
is simply not safer for bicycles than the road. If a kid is old enough
to ride a bike in an urban area without adult supervision, then he is old
enough to ride on the road. I took a bike skills course when I was seven
years old that taught us to ride on the road and not the sidewalk.
Suggesting kids are safer riding on the sidewalk than on the roadway is
perpetuating the myth that riding on the roadway is more dangerous than
it really is.
Really both are very minuscule risk. But really I don't see how it can
be argued that riding on the sidewalk is less safe than the roadway.
For a cyclist it is simply is more safe. Having said that riding in
the road is safe too. Both just require some sense and caution. Keep
your eyes open, Look both ways. Go much slower on a sidewalk, than
you would on a road. etc etc.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
Maybe the answer is to BAN small children from cycling on the sidewalk
and make them do so on the road? Ridiculous of course,
For kids old enough to ride unsupervised it is not ridiculous at all. My
two year old rides a tiny bike with training wheels. She is obviously
not old enough to ride anywhere unsupervised. So she rides along on the
sidewalk at walking speed, with me always at arms' reach. When she is
old enough to ride all by herself without my supervision then I will
tell her to stay on the road and off the sidewalk. I don't want her
getting creamed by a turning car when she rides off the sidewalk and
onto the road when she gets to an intersection [the classic
bike-on-sidewalk accident; see example below].
She won't so long as she uses sense. Simply look for traffic when
leaving the sidewalk. The same way you look when turning right, or
left for vehicles, just do the same when exiting a sidewalk.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
but so is suggesting cycling should be banned on sidewalks as it is
dangerous. It's not...
You and I disagree about this, but here's an example of how riding on the
road is safer than on the sidewalk. A few months ago a twelve year old
was riding his bike westbound on the north sidewalk on Austin Avenue in
Coquitlam. An eastbound car was making a left turn. The left-turning
car did not see the cyclist up on the sidewalk, and there was a collision
when the kid rode off the sidewalk and into the crosswalk where the
car was making his left turn. This would not have happened had the kid
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
The classic one" LOL. That is like saying they are "classic freak
accidents." These are rarities.
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
...and this is proved by cyclist's everyday in every city.
You have used this false argument many, many times in several threads.
Just because many people do it and don't get into accidents does not prove
that it is safe. Thousands of people smoke tobacco every day and don't
get cancer. My own great-grandfather smoked 15-20 filterless
roll-your-own cigarettes every day for over 75 years. He lived to be 95
and never got cancer, lung disease or any other tobacco-related disease.
Did he and others prove that smoking tobacco is safe? Of course not. He
proved that he was lucky and nothing more.
I'm afraid it is not a false agrument but a very TRUEagrument. I'm not
just using my experience, I'm also using the publics. Tobacco related
illness is VERY common and the ratio of those who use tobacco, to those
that get sick, is measurable. Almost all of us know someone affected
by tobacco related illness. Sidewalk/cycling related accidents are NOT
very common and the ratio is infintisimal.
I know people who have become ill due to tobacco related illness. I
know of NO one who has been hurt from sidewalk/cycling related
incidents. People ALMOST getting hurt does not cut it as everybody and
thier dog claims this (similar to helmets). Yet the no one seems to
know anyone who has ever been actually hurt. If they claim to know
someone, ONce you ask names or times and dates, or location, they all
seem to clam up (and get angry with you in the process). Why? Because
they've been caught in a lie.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-14 00:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
...and this is proved by cyclist's everyday in every city.
You have used this false argument many, many times in several threads.
Just because many people do it and don't get into accidents does not prove
that it is safe. Thousands of people smoke tobacco every day and don't
get cancer. My own great-grandfather smoked 15-20 filterless
roll-your-own cigarettes every day for over 75 years. He lived to be 95
and never got cancer, lung disease or any other tobacco-related disease.
Did he and others prove that smoking tobacco is safe? Of course not. He
proved that he was lucky and nothing more.
Actually my example is perfect as it proves the point. YOUR example
(of my example being faulty) is in fact faulty as the risks involved in
tobacco use, far out weight any benefit.
Cycling is opposite. The benefits exceedingly outweigh any risks.

What you, and people like you do is focus on the rarity and then use
that is evidence of "risk."

Jim Fixx was a well known runner, who died of a heart attack while
running. Are you about to say jogging is bad for your health or too
risky? No.

Riding a bike on a sidewalk simply isn't dangerous. Any risk is
minuscule. Do mishaps happen? Yes, just as fit people die of heart
attacks while jogging.
Király
2005-12-17 09:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Actually my example is perfect as it proves the point. YOUR example
(of my example being faulty) is in fact faulty as the risks involved in
tobacco use, far out weight any benefit. Cycling is opposite. The
benefits exceedingly outweigh any risks.
You are right about the benefits vs. the risks, but Risks were never a
part of the comparison. The issue was whether or not doing something
and not suffering any adverse effects proves it is safe. Risk factors
are a good parallel issue, but not relevant.
Post by DiscoDuck
Jim Fixx was a well known runner, who died of a heart attack while
running. Are you about to say jogging is bad for your health or too
risky? No.
Of course not. The fact he happened to be running at the time of his
heart attack is irrelevant. One had nothing to do with the other.

K.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-17 17:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
Actually my example is perfect as it proves the point. YOUR example
(of my example being faulty) is in fact faulty as the risks involved in
tobacco use, far out weight any benefit. Cycling is opposite. The
benefits exceedingly outweigh any risks.
You are right about the benefits vs. the risks, but Risks were never a
part of the comparison. The issue was whether or not doing something
and not suffering any adverse effects proves it is safe. Risk factors
are a good parallel issue, but not relevant.
Of course it is relevant. We were discussing the risks of cycling, on
sidewalk, helmets, etc. IT was you who insisted my examples were
nonsense. Therefore I came up with another,
Post by Király
Post by DiscoDuck
Jim Fixx was a well known runner, who died of a heart attack while
running. Are you about to say jogging is bad for your health or too
risky? No.
Of course not. The fact he happened to be running at the time of his
heart attack is irrelevant. One had nothing to do with the other.
Not so. One DID have something with the other. The strain did cause
the heart attack at that point int time. Had he not been running, or
ran slower that time, he'd likely be ok. Again it was an unfortunate
fluke.
Same thing with these potential hazards some of you guys keep coming up
with (when leaving the sidewalk, riding without a helmet, etc). Fluke
accidents when cycling.
Post by Király
K.
Király
2005-12-19 22:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Király
You are right about the benefits vs. the risks, but Risks were never a
part of the comparison. The issue was whether or not doing something
and not suffering any adverse effects proves it is safe. Risk factors
are a good parallel issue, but not relevant.
Of course it is relevant. We were discussing the risks of cycling, on
sidewalk, helmets, etc. IT was you who insisted my examples were
nonsense. Therefore I came up with another,
Your example of how the health benefits of cycling outweigh the risks
associated with accidents was a well thought out, articulate, thoughtful
look at the issue from more than one angle, and I totally agree with your
assessment. I am pleased and proud that you are able to come up with
such articulate arguments.

But that's not the original argument that you were making. Your original
argument "I have done it a thousand times and so have others with out a
problem; proof that it is safe" was not such an argument. It is based on
anecdotal evidence only and so was not meaningful. Therefore I posted an
equally bogus argument about smoking and not getting cancer to point that
out.

K.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-15 15:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
You and I disagree about this, but here's an example of how riding on the
road is safer than on the sidewalk. A few months ago a twelve year old
was riding his bike westbound on the north sidewalk on Austin Avenue in
Coquitlam. An eastbound car was making a left turn. The left-turning
car did not see the cyclist up on the sidewalk, and there was a collision
when the kid rode off the sidewalk and into the crosswalk where the
car was making his left turn. This would not have happened had the kid
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
Just to clarify the car would not see anything. The driver would.
Király
2005-12-17 09:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Really both [cycling on sidewalk and on roadway] are very minuscule risk.
But really I don't see how it can be argued that riding on the sidewalk
is less safe than the roadway. For a cyclist it is simply is more
safe.
That is simply not true. Again you and I disagree about this, but the
roadway is safer than the sidewalk. The main reason is because the
users of the roadway (cars, bikes, trucks) operate their vehicles in a
more predictable manner than the way users of sidewalks (pedestrians,
dogs, rollerbladers, toddlers, etc) tend to conduct themselves. The
predictability of the roadway is what makes it safer. Cyclists who feel
safer mixing with sidewalk traffic have an exaggerated fear of the risks
involved with cycling on the roadway.
Having said that riding in
the road is safe too. Both just require some sense and caution. Keep
your eyes open, Look both ways. Go much slower on a sidewalk, than
you would on a road. etc etc.
I suppose it is possible to use so much extra caution when riding on the
sidewalk, that the risk factor would be equivalent to riding normally on the
road. But cycling on the sidewalk in such a manner would require such a
heavily modified cycling technique (slowing to a near-walking speed,
stopping at all intersections, stopping and alerting your presence to
pedestrians when approaching from behind, etc) that it is no longer a
really meaningful comparison.
She won't so long as she uses sense. Simply look for traffic when
leaving the sidewalk. The same way you look when turning right, or
left for vehicles, just do the same when exiting a sidewalk.
It's not quite the same. You as a cyclist are more vulnerable on
the sidewalk because drivers are not expecting you to be there
and/or cannot see you. The cyclist's vision of oncoming turning traffic is
also compromised, because there may be traffic, trees, signs, lamp posts,
etc between you and the turning car, blocking your view. This is not an
issue when you are on the roadway and actually a part of the traffic
instead of seperated from it. Like I said before, if you were extra
extra careful, went extra extra slow, you might be in an equally safe
situation, but the comparison is no longer all that meaningful.
Post by Király
been riding on the roadway where the car would have seen him. This is
*the* classic bike-on-sidewalk accident, which is all too common, and
entirely preventable.
The classic one" LOL. That is like saying they are "classic freak
accidents." These are rarities.
They are more common than you think.
I'm afraid it is not a false agrument but a very TRUEagrument. I'm not
just using my experience, I'm also using the publics. Tobacco related
illness is VERY common and the ratio of those who use tobacco, to those
that get sick, is measurable. Almost all of us know someone affected
by tobacco related illness. Sidewalk/cycling related accidents are NOT
very common and the ratio is infintisimal.
That's an interesting point, but it's not really relevant. The point is
not risk factors, but whether doing it and not suffering adverse effects
proves safety and/or health, which is the claim you were making.
I know people who have become ill due to tobacco related illness. I
know of NO one who has been hurt from sidewalk/cycling related
incidents.
That's interesting, my experience is the opposite. Very, very few of the
people I tend to acquaint with are tobacco users, and none that I can
recall have had tobacco-related illness. On the other hand, my own
neighbour was involved in an accident when riding off the sidewalk and
into the crosswalk, and was hit by a turning car, just like the above
accident I described. He's too scared to ride a bike at all anymore and
to this day he still maintains that riding on the sidewalk is safer,
even though the accident would not have happened had he been riding in
the road where both he and the car would have had a clearer view of each
other.

It's a complete shame that my neighbour does not ride a bike anymore
because he's afraid of cars. The irrational fear of being hit by a car
while cycling safely on the roadway keeps more people away from cycling
than the helmet law.

K.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-07 13:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.

Are there any alternatives in the case of Cambie, and are they efficient?

Second, why is the city doing this?
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.

Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.

Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.

Fifthly, DD, are you going to talk about the issue or just use it as a
soap box to spout about your claim that cyclists should be treated
differently that motorists.

============
DiscoDuck
2005-12-07 19:03:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Post by Peter McNichol
Are there any alternatives in the case of Cambie, and are they efficient?
Second, why is the city doing this?
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
Fifthly, DD, are you going to talk about the issue or just use it as a
soap box to spout about your claim that cyclists should be treated
differently that motorists.
Filthy? No, I shower twice daily. But correct, I am using this as
soap box to prove mypoint yet again, that bicycles are different from
cars.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-07 20:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.

Department heads may pass enact some bylaws by delagated authority, but they
must be confirmed by council.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Are there any alternatives in the case of Cambie, and are they efficient?
Second, why is the city doing this?
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
Fifthly, DD, are you going to talk about the issue or just use it as a
soap box to spout about your claim that cyclists should be treated
differently that motorists.
Filthy? No, I shower twice daily. But correct, I am using this as
soap box to prove mypoint yet again, that bicycles are different from
cars.
Well then can you not at least reasonably give a reason why the city
would ban cyclist on Cambie?

Also what is the power. Is it just or sign, or has a bylaw been passed too?
Are there signs at all the entrances to Cambie?

===========
DiscoDuck
2005-12-07 21:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.
So if you had no humans working for city hall, then how would it get
mandated? It takes people, so therefore I am right, and you are wrong.

Your mentality is the type that turns people off "the system." Your
response demostrates ego as a motive for all the rules you want, rather
than safetly being a real motive.
Post by Peter McNichol
Department heads may pass enact some bylaws by delagated authority, but they
must be confirmed by council.
What are you babbling about? I could be wrong, but Department heads
are filled by people. They are employed by the city.
I'll be interested to see how you disagree with this as I'm sure you
make up a way.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Are there any alternatives in the case of Cambie, and are they efficient?
Jusdging by your questions I'll assume you aren't in Vancouver. YEs,
there are signed pointing towards the detour for bicycles.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Second, why is the city doing this?
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
My understanding is they are preparing for something called "The RAV."
A rapid transport system that will take some time to complete.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
I don't see it as a big deal since no one is mandated to wear safely
equipment.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
I suspect the detour does just that.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fifthly, DD, are you going to talk about the issue or just use it as a
soap box to spout about your claim that cyclists should be treated
differently that motorists.
Filthy? No, I shower twice daily. But correct, I am using this as
soap box to prove mypoint yet again, that bicycles are different from
cars.
Well then can you not at least reasonably give a reason why the city
would ban cyclist on Cambie?
Huh? YTou're right, I cannot. I was simpy stating what was happening
on Cambie.
Post by Peter McNichol
Also what is the power. Is it just or sign, or has a bylaw been passed too?
Are there signs at all the entrances to Cambie?
No.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-08 16:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.
So if you had no humans working for city hall, then how would it get
mandated? It takes people, so therefore I am right, and you are wrong.
A city is a legal incorporated body. It exists in law. The city may be
held liable for its actions. Employees cannot.

Your mentality is that type that turns people who want to discuss real
issues off.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Department heads may pass enact some bylaws by delagated authority, but they
must be confirmed by council.
What are you babbling about? I could be wrong, but Department heads
are filled by people. They are employed by the city.
I'll be interested to see how you disagree with this as I'm sure you
make up a way.
But what are you babbling about let us get back to the issue of Cambie Street.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Are there any alternatives in the case of Cambie, and are they efficient?
Jusdging by your questions I'll assume you aren't in Vancouver. YEs,
there are signed pointing towards the detour for bicycles.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Second, why is the city doing this?
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
My understanding is they are preparing for something called "The RAV."
A rapid transport system that will take some time to complete.
That answers one question, but does not answer the question asked.

Why are they banning cyclists on Cambie?
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
I don't see it as a big deal since no one is mandated to wear safely
equipment.
Safety equipment has nothing to do with my statement or question.

Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
I suspect the detour does just that.
I am referring to alternate routes for cyclists and pedestrians on restricted highways.
Cambie Street should allow of cyclists and pedestrians. No reason has been given for
this restriction.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fifthly, DD, are you going to talk about the issue or just use it as a
soap box to spout about your claim that cyclists should be treated
differently that motorists.
Filthy? No, I shower twice daily. But correct, I am using this as
soap box to prove mypoint yet again, that bicycles are different from
cars.
Well then can you not at least reasonably give a reason why the city
would ban cyclist on Cambie?
Huh? YTou're right, I cannot. I was simpy stating what was happening
on Cambie.
Well if you were at all concerned about things you might inquire.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Also what is the power. Is it just or sign, or has a bylaw been passed too?
Are there signs at all the entrances to Cambie?
No.
Well then I do not see how such a law/bylaw, if it exists, could be enforced.
If there are no signs the courts would throw any charge out.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-08 19:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.
So if you had no humans working for city hall, then how would it get
mandated? It takes people, so therefore I am right, and you are wrong.
A city is a legal incorporated body. It exists in law. The city may be
held liable for its actions. Employees cannot.
So tell how that "body" gets it work done? Cats? Dogs? No its
people.
Post by Peter McNichol
Your mentality is that type that turns people who want to discuss real
issues off.
You're the one who stated "First of all Cambie Street is not doing the
mandating. The city may be."

IF that is not changing the issue, then nothing is.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Department heads may pass enact some bylaws by delagated authority, but they
must be confirmed by council.
What are you babbling about? I could be wrong, but Department heads
are filled by people. They are employed by the city.
I'll be interested to see how you disagree with this as I'm sure you
make up a way.
But what are you babbling about let us get back to the issue of Cambie Street.
Then why did you change the issue from Cambie street, to "First of all
Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be."
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Are there any alternatives in the case of Cambie, and are they efficient?
Jusdging by your questions I'll assume you aren't in Vancouver. YEs,
there are signed pointing towards the detour for bicycles.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Second, why is the city doing this?
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
My understanding is they are preparing for something called "The RAV."
A rapid transport system that will take some time to complete.
That answers one question, but does not answer the question asked.
Re-read your question. You asked "Second, why is the city doing this"
. Sounds like a question to me (that you asked). IF you want to know
Post by Peter McNichol
Why are they banning cyclists on Cambie?
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
I don't see it as a big deal since no one is mandated to wear safely
equipment.
Safety equipment has nothing to do with my statement or question.
Correct, it doesn't. I was stating why it didn't matter that much to me
the same way as mandating wearing protective gear, does.
Post by Peter McNichol
Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Doesn't matter to me. My point (As you pointed out) is there are
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
I suspect the detour does just that.
I am referring to alternate routes for cyclists and pedestrians on restricted highways.
Cambie Street should allow of cyclists and pedestrians. No reason has been given for
this restriction.
Then contact the person at the city (note, the city itself cannot
answer this question since it is not a real person capable of
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fifthly, DD, are you going to talk about the issue or just use it as a
soap box to spout about your claim that cyclists should be treated
differently that motorists.
Filthy? No, I shower twice daily. But correct, I am using this as
soap box to prove mypoint yet again, that bicycles are different from
cars.
Well then can you not at least reasonably give a reason why the city
would ban cyclist on Cambie?
Huh? YTou're right, I cannot. I was simpy stating what was happening
on Cambie.
Well if you were at all concerned about things you might inquire.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Also what is the power. Is it just or sign, or has a bylaw been passed too?
Are there signs at all the entrances to Cambie?
No.
Well then I do not see how such a law/bylaw, if it exists, could be enforced.
If there are no signs the courts would throw any charge out.
Try it. IT seems to anger you so. ***@vancouver.ca

You're welcome.
Király
2005-12-09 00:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Sigh, yet another silly thread in this newsgroup.

Here's my attempt at summarizing what's going on to that we are all on
the same page.

The section of Vancouver's Cambie Street in question here is a six-lane
road divided by a wide median. All three northbound lanes are closed at
the moment for construction. The other three lanes are open, with one
carrying northbound traffic and the other two carrying southbound traffic.

In the city's opinion, there is not sufficient width in the temporary
northbound lane for motor vehicles to safely pass cyclists; a slower
moving cyclist in the lane would slow down all of the faster traffic
behind it.

The city's solution is to restrict the use of Cambie Street to motor
vehicles only, and post a cyclists' detour route around the area.

I don't know how comprehensive the signage is because I haven't seen it,
but I would support the detour as long as it is clearly marked at every
entry point. If the City does not bother to mark the detour then they
cannot expect that anybody will use it.

A few years ago, a section of Lougheed Highway in Burnaby was down to a
single narrow lane in each direction because of construction. At the
start of the construction area there was a sign banning bicycles from
going through, but no cyclist detour route was posted. I went merrily on
my way through the construction area, willing to challenge in court any
ticket I might have received, on the grounds that no alternative route
was posted.

And Disco, I don't know why you keep bring up the fact that a car is not
the same a bike and that there are different rules for each. Everybody
knows that.

K.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-09 01:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
And Disco, I don't know why you keep bring up the fact that a car is not
the same a bike and that there are different rules for each. Everybody
knows that.
Király, not everyone knows that I'm afraid. Here and outside of
cyberspace, people are often stating bikes should obey the same rules
as cars.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-15 15:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Király
Sigh, yet another silly thread in this newsgroup.
Here's my attempt at summarizing what's going on to that we are all on
the same page.
The section of Vancouver's Cambie Street in question here is a six-lane
road divided by a wide median. All three northbound lanes are closed at
the moment for construction. The other three lanes are open, with one
carrying northbound traffic and the other two carrying southbound traffic.
Another option would be to open one wide lane in each direction with
or without bike lanes. This would allow bikes to travel in both
directions.
Post by Király
In the city's opinion, there is not sufficient width in the temporary
northbound lane for motor vehicles to safely pass cyclists; a slower
moving cyclist in the lane would slow down all of the faster traffic
behind it.
The city's solution is to restrict the use of Cambie Street to motor
vehicles only, and post a cyclists' detour route around the area.
Cyclist detour sign alone would not restrict cyclist use legally.
Post by Király
I don't know how comprehensive the signage is because I haven't seen it,
but I would support the detour as long as it is clearly marked at every
entry point. If the City does not bother to mark the detour then they
cannot expect that anybody will use it.
The detour depends on the practicality of it, the efficiency, and it
takes the cyclist to their intended destination. It their destination
is on Cambie street then they would need to travel on Cambie Street
at some point. It is impractical to insist that cyclist walk their
bikes and would only encourage sidewalk cycling.
Post by Király
A few years ago, a section of Lougheed Highway in Burnaby was down to a
single narrow lane in each direction because of construction. At the
start of the construction area there was a sign banning bicycles from
going through, but no cyclist detour route was posted. I went merrily on
my way through the construction area, willing to challenge in court any
ticket I might have received, on the grounds that no alternative route
was posted.
My point exactly. If an entrance is not prohibited then a cyclist may enter
the road at that entrance, regardless of how many other entrances prohibit
it.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-15 15:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.
So if you had no humans working for city hall, then how would it get
mandated? It takes people, so therefore I am right, and you are wrong.
A city is a legal incorporated body. It exists in law. The city may be
held liable for its actions. Employees cannot.
So tell how that "body" gets it work done? Cats? Dogs? No its
people.
No one is not saying people do the work, but the corporate body is the one
that legally makes things so (with the help of the people of the city).
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Department heads may pass enact some bylaws by delagated authority, but they
must be confirmed by council.
What are you babbling about? I could be wrong, but Department heads
are filled by people. They are employed by the city.
I'll be interested to see how you disagree with this as I'm sure you
make up a way.
Department head may enact bylaws on behalf of the city. The department heads do
not pass bylaws in their own name.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
My understanding is they are preparing for something called "The RAV."
A rapid transport system that will take some time to complete.
That answers one question, but does not answer the question asked.
Re-read your question. You asked "Second, why is the city doing this"
. Sounds like a question to me (that you asked). IF you want to know
I was asking you. In your great cycling "expertise" why do you think this
is so.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
I don't see it as a big deal since no one is mandated to wear safely
equipment.
Safety equipment has nothing to do with my statement or question.
Correct, it doesn't. I was stating why it didn't matter that much to me
the same way as mandating wearing protective gear, does.
So back to the question. Is Cambie street safe to cycle on?
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Doesn't matter to me. My point (As you pointed out) is there are
It would make much more sense to show the press release then to keep
asking people to write the city.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
I suspect the detour does just that.
I am referring to alternate routes for cyclists and pedestrians on restricted highways.
Cambie Street should allow of cyclists and pedestrians. No reason has been given for
this restriction.
Kiraly gave the answer, but as I indicate this restriction is not sufficient reason to ban
cyclist from Cambie street.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-15 18:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.
So if you had no humans working for city hall, then how would it get
mandated? It takes people, so therefore I am right, and you are wrong.
A city is a legal incorporated body. It exists in law. The city may be
held liable for its actions. Employees cannot.
So tell how that "body" gets it work done? Cats? Dogs? No its
people.
No one is not saying people do the work, but the corporate body is the one
that legally makes things so (with the help of the people of the city).
You decided to
nitpick" by saying "First of all Cambie Street is not doing the
mandating. The city may be"

Therefore used the exact same method you did. And the fact is, the
city cannot pass laws. Only people can. If you took away all the
people off the face of the earth, then no laws can be passed.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Department heads may pass enact some bylaws by delagated authority, but they
must be confirmed by council.
What are you babbling about? I could be wrong, but Department heads
are filled by people. They are employed by the city.
I'll be interested to see how you disagree with this as I'm sure you
make up a way.
Department head may enact bylaws on behalf of the city. The department heads do
not pass bylaws in their own name.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
My understanding is they are preparing for something called "The RAV."
A rapid transport system that will take some time to complete.
That answers one question, but does not answer the question asked.
Re-read your question. You asked "Second, why is the city doing this"
. Sounds like a question to me (that you asked). IF you want to know
I was asking you. In your great cycling "expertise" why do you think this
is so.
I answerd that this is due to RAV contruction. YOu must take better
care to read posts. But it sounds as though you really don't care why
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Thirdly, what right, other than the law, do they have to restrict people
from safe efficient transportation on the shortest, safe route.
I don't see it as a big deal since no one is mandated to wear safely
equipment.
Safety equipment has nothing to do with my statement or question.
Correct, it doesn't. I was stating why it didn't matter that much to me
the same way as mandating wearing protective gear, does.
So back to the question. Is Cambie street safe to cycle on?
Back to the answer, in my opinion "Yes." LIke almost all roads.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Doesn't matter to me. My point (As you pointed out) is there are
It would make much more sense to show the press release then to keep
asking people to write the city.
Then ask ***@vancouver.ca for the press release (Assuming there
is one)
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Fourthly, I can understand restricting bicycles on highways, however there
should be alternate routes that are equally efficient available.
I suspect the detour does just that.
I am referring to alternate routes for cyclists and pedestrians on restricted highways.
Cambie Street should allow of cyclists and pedestrians. No reason has been given for
this restriction.
Kiraly gave the answer, but as I indicate this restriction is not sufficient reason to ban
cyclist from Cambie street.
Peter McNichol
2005-12-16 13:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Seems Cambie street is mandating detours for bicycles while they do
construction.
Just more proof to those that insist a bike should be treated the same
as a car, that they are not.
First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be.
Oh brother. If you're going to use that kind of "reasoning, then let
me correct you using the same. Actually the city isn't mandating, bur
rather employees of the city.
Incorrect the city is a incorporated body and the one who enacts the law.
The employees, actually the councillors, are the ones that pass laws/bylaws.
So if you had no humans working for city hall, then how would it get
mandated? It takes people, so therefore I am right, and you are wrong.
A city is a legal incorporated body. It exists in law. The city may be
held liable for its actions. Employees cannot.
So tell how that "body" gets it work done? Cats? Dogs? No its
people.
No one is not saying people do the work, but the corporate body is the one
that legally makes things so (with the help of the people of the city).
Therefore used the exact same method you did. And the fact is, the
city cannot pass laws. Only people can. If you took away all the
people off the face of the earth, then no laws can be passed.
The people pass the laws on behalf of the city, but the city is the corporate
body the laws are enacted upon. Without the city you would have no laws either.
People cannot pass laws in their own name. Not even the monarchy can do that
anymore.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
That answers one question, but does not answer the question asked.
Re-read your question. You asked "Second, why is the city doing this"
. Sounds like a question to me (that you asked). IF you want to know
I was asking you. In your great cycling "expertise" why do you think this
is so.
I answerd that this is due to RAV contruction. YOu must take better
care to read posts. But it sounds as though you really don't care why
RAV Construction is the reason for the construction not for the banning
of cyclists.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Doesn't matter to me. My point (As you pointed out) is there are
It would make much more sense to show the press release then to keep
asking people to write the city.
is one)
DD
It seems to me since you first mentioned Cambie street you should know.
Further if engineering had a press release it might save them from responding
to emails.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-17 04:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
The people pass the laws on behalf of the city, but the city is the corporate
body the laws are enacted upon. Without the city you would have no laws either.
People cannot pass laws in their own name. Not even the monarchy can do that
anymore.
This corporate body you're so atttached to, is a concept. IT still
takes people to pass laws. I'm not sure why you can't accept that.
IT's a fact.

As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.

And what on earth are you on about the Monarchy now?
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
I answerd that this is due to RAV contruction. YOu must take better
care to read posts. But it sounds as though you really don't care why
RAV Construction is the reason for the construction not for the banning
of cyclists.
Oh really? So if no construction was happenning, they would still ban
the cycling? Why?
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Doesn't matter to me. My point (As you pointed out) is there are
It would make much more sense to show the press release then to keep
asking people to write the city.
is one)
DD
It seems to me since you first mentioned Cambie street you should know.
Further if engineering had a press release it might save them from responding
to emails.
Know what? To be precise I wrote "Seems Cambie street is mandating
detours for bicycles while they do construction. Just more proof to
those that insist a bike should be treated the same as a car, that they
are not."

Know why they are doing it? I presumed because of the RAV
Construction, but above you are stating that is not why. Why else
would it be?
Peter McNichol
2005-12-19 14:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
The people pass the laws on behalf of the city, but the city is the corporate
body the laws are enacted upon. Without the city you would have no laws either.
People cannot pass laws in their own name. Not even the monarchy can do that
anymore.
This corporate body you're so atttached to, is a concept. IT still
takes people to pass laws. I'm not sure why you can't accept that.
IT's a fact.
I did say people where involved. You cannot the fact that without
a legal body you cannot pass laws.
Post by DiscoDuck
As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.
They are legal bodies. Humans cannot pass laws. Humans pass laws on
behalf of a legal body.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
I answerd that this is due to RAV contruction. YOu must take better
care to read posts. But it sounds as though you really don't care why
RAV Construction is the reason for the construction not for the banning
of cyclists.
Oh really? So if no construction was happenning, they would still ban
the cycling? Why?
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by Peter McNichol
a) safety?
b) to keep cars moving
c) insufficient lane width (how long is the construction?)
d) all of the above
e) other, please specify.
Why should they ban people from using safe efficient transportation on the
shortest, safe route (i.e. Cambie street).
Doesn't matter to me. My point (As you pointed out) is there are
It would make much more sense to show the press release then to keep
asking people to write the city.
is one)
DD
It seems to me since you first mentioned Cambie street you should know.
Further if engineering had a press release it might save them from responding
to emails.
Know what? To be precise I wrote "Seems Cambie street is mandating
detours for bicycles while they do construction. Just more proof to
those that insist a bike should be treated the same as a car, that they
are not."
Know why they are doing it? I presumed because of the RAV
Construction, but above you are stating that is not why. Why else
would it be?
Construction does not require the banning of vehicles.
You failed to mention the compelling reason.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-19 20:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
I did say people where involved. You cannot the fact that without
a legal body you cannot pass laws.
What came first, people or legal bodies? It is people that pass laws.
Not legal bodies.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.
They are legal bodies. Humans cannot pass laws. Humans pass laws on
behalf of a legal body.
LOL. Uhm, incorrect. It is indeed humans that pass laws. A legal
body cannot pass a law, any more than Cambie street can as you
initially pointed out (presumably because you did not understand).
Post by Peter McNichol
Construction does not require the banning of vehicles.
You failed to mention the compelling reason.
Well they did ban bikes. IT seems to bother you so, therefore here is
an email address for you to take it up with them. Here you go:
***@vancouver.ca

My aim was not to offer a compelling reason but to answer your question
with an an educated guess that it was due to RAV construction.

You're welcome
Peter McNichol
2005-12-19 22:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
I did say people where involved. You cannot the fact that without
a legal body you cannot pass laws.
What came first, people or legal bodies? It is people that pass laws.
Not legal bodies.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.
They are legal bodies. Humans cannot pass laws. Humans pass laws on
behalf of a legal body.
LOL. Uhm, incorrect. It is indeed humans that pass laws. A legal
body cannot pass a law, any more than Cambie street can as you
initially pointed out (presumably because you did not understand).
Well seem to me that you are incorrect. Read the above again.
It is you that does not understand the reason for a legal body.

It is neither the street or the humans who have the legal right
to pass laws. You are wrong twice, and two wrongs do not make a right.
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Construction does not require the banning of vehicles.
You failed to mention the compelling reason.
Well they did ban bikes. IT seems to bother you so, therefore here is
My aim was not to offer a compelling reason but to answer your question
with an an educated guess that it was due to RAV construction.
You're welcome
The point is vehicles travel on roads under construction all the time,
even bicycles. So the construction on its own was not the reason.

I await another simple answer from a simple mind.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-20 05:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
I did say people where involved. You cannot the fact that without
a legal body you cannot pass laws.
What came first, people or legal bodies? It is people that pass laws.
Not legal bodies.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.
They are legal bodies. Humans cannot pass laws. Humans pass laws on
behalf of a legal body.
LOL. Uhm, incorrect. It is indeed humans that pass laws. A legal
body cannot pass a law, any more than Cambie street can as you
initially pointed out (presumably because you did not understand).
Well seem to me that you are incorrect. Read the above again.
It is you that does not understand the reason for a legal body.
Dude, accept it. YOu got nitpicky when you said "First of all Cambie
Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be" and when called on
it you were proved wrong when I correctly nitpicked back, that only
people can pass laws. You seem to have a weak grasp of understanding
people, like when you said to Király, "just to clarify the car would
not see anything. The driver would" or you try to antagonize. Not sure
which but I'm guessing the latter. It is a personality disorder of
"control" issues.
Post by Peter McNichol
It is neither the street or the humans who have the legal right
to pass laws. You are wrong twice, and two wrongs do not make a right.
Again , you make another (repeated) mistake. Learn from your mistakes
Peter. You can only do that if you admit them. So again, people are
the ones passing laws. Not buildings, trees and concrete.
That is 0 for 4 Peter.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Construction does not require the banning of vehicles.
You failed to mention the compelling reason.
Well they did ban bikes. IT seems to bother you so, therefore here is
My aim was not to offer a compelling reason but to answer your question
with an an educated guess that it was due to RAV construction.
You're welcome
The point is vehicles travel on roads under construction all the time,
even bicycles. So the construction on its own was not the reason.
I await another simple answer from a simple mind.
Of course you should know with such replies as:
"First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may
be" and
"just to clarify the car would not see anything. The driver would"
Peter McNichol
2005-12-21 19:39:14 UTC
Permalink
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
I did say people where involved. You cannot the fact that without
a legal body you cannot pass laws.
What came first, people or legal bodies? It is people that pass laws.
Not legal bodies.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.
They are legal bodies. Humans cannot pass laws. Humans pass laws on
behalf of a legal body.
LOL. Uhm, incorrect. It is indeed humans that pass laws. A legal
body cannot pass a law, any more than Cambie street can as you
initially pointed out (presumably because you did not understand).
Well seem to me that you are incorrect. Read the above again.
It is you that does not understand the reason for a legal body.
Dude, accept it. YOu got nitpicky when you said "First of all Cambie
Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be" and when called on
it you were proved wrong when I correctly nitpicked back, that only
people can pass laws. You seem to have a weak grasp of understanding
people, like when you said to Király, "just to clarify the car would
not see anything. The driver would" or you try to antagonize. Not sure
which but I'm guessing the latter. It is a personality disorder of
"control" issues.
Yes Kiraly is a person who can understand an issue.
Kiraly can give an accurate logical response.
You cannot.

Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.

Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.

Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.

Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
It is neither the street or the humans who have the legal right
to pass laws. You are wrong twice, and two wrongs do not make a right.
Again , you make another (repeated) mistake. Learn from your mistakes
Peter. You can only do that if you admit them. So again, people are
the ones passing laws. Not buildings, trees and concrete.
That is 0 for 4 Peter.
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Construction does not require the banning of vehicles.
You failed to mention the compelling reason.
Well they did ban bikes. IT seems to bother you so, therefore here is
My aim was not to offer a compelling reason but to answer your question
with an an educated guess that it was due to RAV construction.
You're welcome
The point is vehicles travel on roads under construction all the time,
even bicycles. So the construction on its own was not the reason.
I await another simple answer from a simple mind.
"First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may
be" and
"just to clarify the car would not see anything. The driver would"
Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.

Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.

Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.

Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.

Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!

And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.

And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.

And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.

And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.

And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.
DiscoDuck
2005-12-21 20:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McNichol
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
I did read your posts, multiple times. The fact is you are wrong.
Concrete and buildings do not pass laws. People do.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
I did say people where involved. You cannot the fact that without
a legal body you cannot pass laws.
What came first, people or legal bodies? It is people that pass laws.
Not legal bodies.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
As for your claim "Without the city you would have no laws either" I'm
surprised you do not know that there are provincial laws, and Federal
laws.
They are legal bodies. Humans cannot pass laws. Humans pass laws on
behalf of a legal body.
LOL. Uhm, incorrect. It is indeed humans that pass laws. A legal
body cannot pass a law, any more than Cambie street can as you
initially pointed out (presumably because you did not understand).
Well seem to me that you are incorrect. Read the above again.
It is you that does not understand the reason for a legal body.
Dude, accept it. YOu got nitpicky when you said "First of all Cambie
Street is not doing the mandating. The city may be" and when called on
it you were proved wrong when I correctly nitpicked back, that only
people can pass laws. You seem to have a weak grasp of understanding
people, like when you said to Király, "just to clarify the car would
not see anything. The driver would" or you try to antagonize. Not sure
which but I'm guessing the latter. It is a personality disorder of
"control" issues.
Yes Kiraly is a person who can understand an issue.
Kiraly can give an accurate logical response.
You cannot.
Then why did you correct her regarding the car example. Király and I
don't get along, but I knew what she meant and so did every reader
here, except you. I wasn't going to leap on her for something like
that. Does it somehow make you feel (giggle) smarter (LOL) by doing
things like this?
Post by Peter McNichol
Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.
Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.
Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.
Seem to me it is you that have the disorder issue.
No, you were the one that stated Cambie street cannot pass laws.
Either an attempt to nitpic, or you truly did not understand the point
of the initial post, circumnavigating the issue in the process.
Post by Peter McNichol
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
Somehow you think copying pasting the same sentence multiple times,
makes you right? Uh, nope. But it does offer some entertainment
value.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
It is neither the street or the humans who have the legal right
to pass laws. You are wrong twice, and two wrongs do not make a right.
Again , you make another (repeated) mistake. Learn from your mistakes
Peter. You can only do that if you admit them. So again, people are
the ones passing laws. Not buildings, trees and concrete.
That is 0 for 4 Peter.
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
Oh my, do you have anger issues? IT would seem so. Upset because you
can't control me.
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Post by DiscoDuck
Post by Peter McNichol
Construction does not require the banning of vehicles.
You failed to mention the compelling reason.
Well they did ban bikes. IT seems to bother you so, therefore here is
My aim was not to offer a compelling reason but to answer your question
with an an educated guess that it was due to RAV construction.
You're welcome
The point is vehicles travel on roads under construction all the time,
even bicycles. So the construction on its own was not the reason.
I await another simple answer from a simple mind.
"First of all Cambie Street is not doing the mandating. The city may
be" and
"just to clarify the car would not see anything. The driver would"
Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.
Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.
Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.
Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.
Nit picker or not it is the kettle calling the pot black.
LOL. THis gets better and better. Can it get EVEN better?
So how do you figure I was nitpicking?
Post by Peter McNichol
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
ACTUALLY YOU ARE NOT THE ONE ACCEPTING THINGS. READ MY POST!!!!
Yup, it just did. THIS IS Awsome. What a spazz.

You need to admit your mistakes, only then can you gain credibility.
Post by Peter McNichol
And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.
And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.
And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.
And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.
And yes, I am shouting. You do not seem to be listening.
I'm listening perfetly. Your reaction is cleary a result of a deinal of
how wrong you were, and still are.

Everyone else knew what I meant when I wrote about cambie street,
except you. Same with Király.

I'll await your spazztic multiple copying and pasting, reply.

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